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[Music]

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welcome to shattered reality with their

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hosts Kate Valentine and furs prepare to

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have your paradigms shifted and your

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truths questioned and now shattered

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reality another day another shattered

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reality and I know you're going to want

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to slate it

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yes I always love to slate that's my old

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commercial training from doing

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commercials and movies and TV stuff so

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what we have here today is December 5th

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2017 and this is believe it or not our

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59th show and we have a wonderful guest

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with us today

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somebody who has written a number of

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books who is a doctor of philosophy from

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Latrobe University she has a

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wide-ranging series of interests

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including spiders and other natural

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phenomena she's even written a book

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about a fictional book but we're having

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her on today to talk about her book

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primarily the memory code now I'm going

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to just summarize in one sentence before

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I introduce her I she speaks to the pre

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historic pre literary cultures that are

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have existed around the world some of

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which still exist and how they memorize

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all the information they need to know

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through something called song lines and

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then they

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then as time went by and people started

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to settle in one specific place rather

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than nomadically wander about these song

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lines were somewhat translated into

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monuments and personal devices that

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allowed them to remember now I'm sure

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all of this sounds very confusing but

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once we get into speaking to dr. Lynne

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Kelley here you will all understand this

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much better so if if you will let's

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welcome dr. Lynne Kelly welcome to the

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show dr. Kelley thanks Kate her delight

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it to be here yeah so how did you start

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this study it's sort of an obscure one

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but was it because you are in Australia

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because because they have original

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culture that certainly made a huge

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difference sort of kept stumbling onto

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things but I just want to explain about

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the Aboriginal culture are either

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settled or mobile not nomadic nomadic

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cultures are those that wander sort of

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randomly in some ways where has all

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cultures are ones that will move between

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a number of different locations over the

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celebrations and so on but they know

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perfectly well where they're going

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they're well worn tracks and those

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tracks are recorded in memory they know

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them very well mentally as well as

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physically and in Australia that song

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lines in America they're Native

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pilgrimage trails in the Pacific their

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ceremonial roads so this is the

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well-known phenomenal globally but

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Australian Aboriginal cultures of which

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there's about 300 at least are the best

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example we can get I have to tell you

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something I have to make a confession if

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you will the confession is this I have a

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little bit of a packrat I have much more

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stuff than I ought to have

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according to today's idea of living

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minimally I wouldn't say I'm a

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psychiatric case about it but what I

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found is that I keep some of the things

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that I keep because when I pick the the

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object up it reminds me of something in

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my life that I might never think about

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again if I didn't have the object and so

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the object even though it might not be

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worth anything it could be lets say a

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playbill from a play I've attended on

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Broadway or an empty perfume bottle that

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was given to me by an ex suitor when I

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was a teenager and I picked these things

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up and this very rich context comes into

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mind is this something I felt like it

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was related to what it is that you're

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speaking of and it's part of the reason

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that made me absolutely certain that I

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wanted to have you here on shadowed

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reality thank you that's really

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interesting because there's a difference

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between reminders and memory devices so

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reminders are a form of that in that

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they are making your memory go back but

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indigenous cultures can't carry lots of

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stuff and so they build formal methods

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into what they do carry if we go to the

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absolute minimal stage of one of the

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northern Australian central desert

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northern Australia Aboriginal cultures

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they will carry with them what's called

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a Coulomb on and this is a carved wooden

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dish that is used to carry food it's

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sort of curved carried food carry babies

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carry just about anything but on the

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reverse of it there will be designs and

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those designs act as the sort of memory

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device you're talking about but every

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single aspect of it as they touch them

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will remind them of a song or a story

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that encodes the whole culture so there

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will be the sort of things you're

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talking about but also

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all the knowledge of the culture and

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that's about all they'll carry with them

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apart from digging sticks and a few

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other odds and ends and children so they

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have to go absolute minimalist and

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maintain this encyclopedia based on a

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few devices they'll also use artwork and

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other devices as well

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and you have a photo of this Kulemin in

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your book it's I think it's two photos

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of different aspects of the same cool

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amount yes that's right and other

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cultures have other versions but all of

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them use some kind of portable devices

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which allow them to memorize and sing

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all the songs that encode vast amounts

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of information a lot of it pragmatic and

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scientific which is my area of expertise

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but of course the spiritual and belief

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side of it

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- but that's theory in which we work the

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most the area I've looked at to

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understand the system of the things

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where we agree so kangaroo in Australia

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goes blank EDD Boinga Dede whether you

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encode that information in writing which

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is a bit hard because I can't spell

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Boyka Dede

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but or in terms of the stories and the

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dances that tell the behavior of a

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kangaroo well so this wall started for

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you with these song lines do you want to

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tell us what it means actly for our

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but it started for me before that I was

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looking into behavior one thing I write

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about animal behavior and I was looking

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at wondering whether writing about

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Aboriginal stories or Native American

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stories would make me see the behavior

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of an animal more more different more

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differently more thoroughly which of

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course it did but as I started doing

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that

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I started realizing the vast amount of

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information they're actually storing so

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the Navajo for example there's one study

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that shows that they have recorded the

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identification of behavior and habitat

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and so on of over 700 insects and that's

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just insects adding all the other

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animals and you're up to a thousand then

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adding the plants and navigation it's

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turned out to be this vast amount of

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information and I couldn't memorize

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anything so I started asking how on

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earth do they do this and that led me to

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song lines now some lines for Australian

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Aboriginal people are basically tracks

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through the bush location to location so

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that they can navigate where at each

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location they will perform a ritual now

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ritual technically is just a repeated

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event it may have a spiritual domain it

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may not but it's repeated because

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repetition helps you memorize so to each

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location they would sing a song or

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perform a dance which might be the

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behavior of the kangaroo it might be

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about how to nap stone where to find a

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waterhole because Australia's

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desperately short of water and Sun and

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all this information would be stored in

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these songs that were performed and

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songs more memorable than just words

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that's why it's so often sung location

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by location right across the landscape

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which acts as the sort of memory you

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were talking about a reminder to sing

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that song and what the song is now we

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know from the Y annual people right up

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north of Australia that they recorded at

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least sick at least 800 kilometers I'm

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sorry I can't do that miles but eight

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it's a long way 800 kilometers of these

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song lines with these songs at every few

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meters every hundred meters at the most

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right along them wow you talk vast

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number of songs but that act there's a

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wonderful memory system it's the same as

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the ancient

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Greeks and Romans used called the method

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of loci loc I or the art of memory or

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memory palaces but just in a more

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complex form but then I was able to show

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that Native American pilgrimage trails

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work the same the incas sect ways see qu

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es I'm not sure the pronunciation

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different people tell me different

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pronunciations the Pacific ceremonial

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ropes so it's a universal method because

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that's the way the human brain works and

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it's phenomenally powerful very

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interesting very interesting for sure I

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know that ritual is very important to

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train the mind because I work sometimes

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with people with intentionality like

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intending for their success in some way

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intending let's say to get a PhD which

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would work in your case you have a PhD

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that somebody who wants some attainment

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to this moment we're going to just use

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PhD and I I sort of instruct them that

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they need to create a ritual around it

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to focus their intention ality so you

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know I'm very familiar with the use of

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ritual and absolutely yeah I've got lots

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of examples of that because it does

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focus you I just trained for the

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Australian memory championships where

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you memorize shuttle decks of cards and

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all these terrible things but you're

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getting use memory palaces and I put on

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earphones to concentrate I don't know

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how much they cut out the world but the

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moment I put them on I was that's this

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is the task I'm working out before I

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ride I always write something in a

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journal it start that ritual focuses you

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I think that what you're onto is very

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important why thank you so we've got the

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song lines and then we move from the

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aboriginal culture

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into the cultures that are beginning to

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settle settle down and I believe that

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you made your first discovery in regards

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to this in in Avebury or Stonehenge

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which was it and could you explain right

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yes

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I was totally immersed in these memory

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palaces and memory methods and my

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husband just reeked walla fide as just

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qualified as an archeologist and he want

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to go to Stonehenge in England and so I

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trotted along with him having no

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knowledge and no interest particularly

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in archaeology and there we are on

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Salisbury Plain stone circle in front of

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us and I thought this is very clever

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what they've done is when they need to

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settle they need to make these song

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lines local they can't afford to lose

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those locations and the reminders of the

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memory aids to all that information so

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what they've done is put up a stone in a

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big circle because originally it didn't

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have the big stone henge didn't have the

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big ones in the middle for the first 500

276
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:39,530
years it was a stone circle about a

277
00:14:46,030 --> 00:14:43,130
hundred metres across with 56 blue

278
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:46,040
stones in it that's representing the

279
00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:48,650
annual cycle of the locations and the

280
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:50,900
songs that was just the idea and I

281
00:14:56,410 --> 00:14:53,170
discovered that nobody had ever

282
00:14:58,900 --> 00:14:56,420
suggested that before and therefore my

283
00:15:00,490 --> 00:14:58,910
original assumption was okay somebody

284
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:00,500
has and they've shown that it's rubbish

285
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:03,050
but I couldn't get rid of it there's a

286
00:15:08,620 --> 00:15:06,290
thousand stone circles like that of

287
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:08,630
various size and that all over Britain

288
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:10,490
and Western Europe but then if you go to

289
00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:14,090
America you've got timber circles in

290
00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:16,430
Louisiana and Poverty Point they had

291
00:15:21,570 --> 00:15:18,500
timber circles similar dimensions

292
00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:21,580
similar numbers you've got a whole lot

293
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:24,040
over in Ohio

294
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:28,250
yes Ohio wonderful stuff and then

295
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:30,710
there's more in Egypt so you've got this

296
00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:32,870
same pattern everywhere where there's

297
00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:36,260
not contact between the cultures the

298
00:15:39,369 --> 00:15:38,360
common factor is that's the way the

299
00:15:42,309 --> 00:15:39,379
human brain

300
00:15:45,969 --> 00:15:42,319
these memory palaces just work in the

301
00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:45,979
neuroscience of associating memory with

302
00:15:53,889 --> 00:15:51,470
place is very strong and so being part

303
00:15:56,849 --> 00:15:53,899
of the research at the moment but won

304
00:15:59,289 --> 00:15:56,859
the Nobel Prize for medicine 2014

305
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:59,299
studies on this sort of thing so you've

306
00:16:03,909 --> 00:16:01,519
got the human brain as the common factor

307
00:16:06,909 --> 00:16:03,919
setting up these memory palaces

308
00:16:10,569 --> 00:16:06,919
everywhere so tell us more about memory

309
00:16:13,479 --> 00:16:10,579
palaces so memory palace is just a set

310
00:16:16,059 --> 00:16:13,489
of locations if you'd want to set up one

311
00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:16,069
at home and say you wanted to remember

312
00:16:20,739 --> 00:16:18,889
the presidents the United States which I

313
00:16:22,929 --> 00:16:20,749
can't do except don't know them but

314
00:16:24,689 --> 00:16:22,939
would use that as an example you would

315
00:16:27,729 --> 00:16:24,699
put the first president

316
00:16:29,259 --> 00:16:27,739
imagine him somehow in the location of

317
00:16:31,359 --> 00:16:29,269
the front door

318
00:16:34,210 --> 00:16:31,369
you'd move to the second location and

319
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:34,220
place the second president there and so

320
00:16:38,439 --> 00:16:36,470
on right through all your presidents so

321
00:16:40,529 --> 00:16:38,449
that as you moved around that memory

322
00:16:43,419 --> 00:16:40,539
palace physically or just in your mind

323
00:16:45,309 --> 00:16:43,429
you would get each of them in order and

324
00:16:47,889 --> 00:16:45,319
the difference between that in a

325
00:16:51,099 --> 00:16:47,899
mnemonic rhyme is that you can add more

326
00:16:53,049 --> 00:16:51,109
and more more data to every one of those

327
00:16:55,179 --> 00:16:53,059
locations and make it more and more

328
00:16:58,689 --> 00:16:55,189
complex and that's what indigenous

329
00:17:00,549 --> 00:16:58,699
cultures do at each location they will

330
00:17:02,529 --> 00:17:00,559
teach the stories that we hear the

331
00:17:05,230 --> 00:17:02,539
children's stories because we're not

332
00:17:06,939 --> 00:17:05,240
initiated and then with initiation they

333
00:17:10,179 --> 00:17:06,949
will add more and more and more

334
00:17:12,429 --> 00:17:10,189
complexity so the concept of a memory

335
00:17:15,159 --> 00:17:12,439
palace is the most powerful memory

336
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:15,169
method all come all memory champions use

337
00:17:21,579 --> 00:17:17,329
it today in the memory championships in

338
00:17:24,939 --> 00:17:21,589
fact yes no two days ago Alex Mullen an

339
00:17:27,309 --> 00:17:24,949
American just took out the world memory

340
00:17:29,919 --> 00:17:27,319
championship using a memory palace and

341
00:17:34,419 --> 00:17:29,929
memorized one of the events he memorized

342
00:17:37,899 --> 00:17:34,429
a shuffled deck of cards in 15.6 seconds

343
00:17:40,629 --> 00:17:37,909
mylord is astounding and a new world

344
00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:40,639
record I could do it in eight minutes

345
00:17:47,139 --> 00:17:43,460
and I'm pretty pleased with that that's

346
00:17:49,539 --> 00:17:47,149
amazing in itself I will do is create

347
00:17:52,210 --> 00:17:49,549
images and place them in the locations

348
00:17:53,170 --> 00:17:52,220
in a memory palace well I find this

349
00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:53,180
extremely

350
00:18:00,450 --> 00:17:55,460
interesting because I've traveled around

351
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:00,460
the world going to megalithic places and

352
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:03,770
quite frankly it never occurred to me

353
00:18:09,460 --> 00:18:07,070
that this was the primary reason for

354
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:09,470
some of these things have you been to

355
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:12,080
Newgrange I know you show a picture of

356
00:18:18,010 --> 00:18:15,290
it could you tell us about how you found

357
00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:18,020
Newgrange and and what you thought about

358
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:22,160
that yes this is the there's a whole lot

359
00:18:29,710 --> 00:18:25,250
more aspects to arguing that these

360
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:29,720
locations are memory palaces or memories

361
00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:32,090
spaces knowledge spaces because if I

362
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:34,910
just argued what I've said so far it's

363
00:18:39,940 --> 00:18:38,210
no any complex enough and so what

364
00:18:42,370 --> 00:18:39,950
so there's actually 10 aspects but

365
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:42,380
another really critical one is that

366
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:44,510
indigenous cultures use restricted

367
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:48,770
information yes ASIS stop they they

368
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:50,930
really important stuff that they can't

369
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:52,880
get wrong it's held at a very high level

370
00:18:57,730 --> 00:18:55,310
of initiation very secret because that

371
00:19:00,910 --> 00:18:57,740
stops the Chinese whispers effect it

372
00:19:03,220 --> 00:19:00,920
stops corruption of the information by

373
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:03,230
everybody chattering about it and keeps

374
00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:05,690
it very accurate and we have exempt I

375
00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:07,070
will get back to Newgrange this is

376
00:19:12,790 --> 00:19:09,200
really important than your page okay but

377
00:19:14,110 --> 00:19:12,800
we do have stories in Australia now

378
00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:14,120
research showing that some of the

379
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:15,920
stories on the landscape changes date

380
00:19:19,420 --> 00:19:18,770
back seven to ten thousand years if not

381
00:19:22,030 --> 00:19:19,430
longer

382
00:19:24,610 --> 00:19:22,040
and that's how robust these methods are

383
00:19:27,970 --> 00:19:24,620
as long as it's kept accurate so

384
00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:27,980
Newgrange and right round the world you

385
00:19:34,540 --> 00:19:31,760
find restricted places so those I'm

386
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:34,550
saying that what's called tombs and cans

387
00:19:40,660 --> 00:19:37,970
and so on would have included bones

388
00:19:42,370 --> 00:19:40,670
because they don't include many in fact

389
00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:42,380
at Newgrange they have very little

390
00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:44,750
evidence of it but they still call the

391
00:19:50,410 --> 00:19:48,560
tomb of these secret passages which

392
00:19:52,330 --> 00:19:50,420
would have been restricted performance

393
00:19:52,990 --> 00:19:52,340
spaces the acoustics in them are

394
00:19:54,940 --> 00:19:53,000
stunning

395
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:54,950
there's the artwork that would act as a

396
00:19:59,800 --> 00:19:57,770
memory device but also only those

397
00:20:02,170 --> 00:19:59,810
initiated would have been allowed in

398
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:02,180
there in order to ensure that this

399
00:20:06,740 --> 00:20:04,640
information was kept accurate but at

400
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:06,750
Newgrange you've also got a circle of

401
00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:09,840
around it of standing stones you've also

402
00:20:14,540 --> 00:20:12,150
got the stones right around the

403
00:20:18,770 --> 00:20:14,550
perimeter on the outside which had

404
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:18,780
decorated yes they are that act as each

405
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:21,510
one quite different those would act as a

406
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:23,910
set of memory locations as would the

407
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:26,310
circle of stones around it and then the

408
00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:28,410
highly restricted information would have

409
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:31,500
been kept in the restricted locations

410
00:20:40,190 --> 00:20:35,600
just as the Native American sites have

411
00:20:41,660 --> 00:20:40,200
their locations they have lodges and it

412
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:41,670
depends which culture you're talking

413
00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:41,970
about

414
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:44,820
but restricted areas and initiation into

415
00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:47,730
that information so new grains you have

416
00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:49,590
the restricted and the public knowledge

417
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:52,200
you have performance spaces outside and

418
00:20:59,060 --> 00:20:56,690
inside acoustic enhancement astronomical

419
00:21:02,960 --> 00:20:59,070
alignments because that enables you to

420
00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:02,970
maintain a calendar which is absolutely

421
00:21:07,550 --> 00:21:05,190
essential for ceremony as well as for

422
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:07,560
agriculture and hunting and resource

423
00:21:13,130 --> 00:21:11,280
management and I learnt most about that

424
00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:13,140
I Australian Aboriginal people are

425
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:14,790
really good on this astronomical

426
00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:18,000
alignment but your Pueblo people are

427
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:20,340
absolutely extraordinary in the level of

428
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:24,510
astronomy their knowledge and the way

429
00:21:32,830 --> 00:21:27,930
they maintained corn through mythology

430
00:21:36,410 --> 00:21:32,840
through story but also really clever

431
00:21:40,190 --> 00:21:36,420
clever planting of corn of multiple

432
00:21:44,660 --> 00:21:40,200
species varieties colors so that they

433
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:44,670
didn't in to cross pollinate they kept

434
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:46,530
them pure for hundreds of years which

435
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:48,330
enabled them to survive in harsh

436
00:21:53,420 --> 00:21:50,730
conditions so all this sort of

437
00:21:56,650 --> 00:21:53,430
information has to be held and it has to

438
00:21:59,660 --> 00:21:56,660
be held accurately yeah it is quite

439
00:22:04,340 --> 00:21:59,670
fascinating having been down to the

440
00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:04,350
Chaco Canyon area and having traveled

441
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:06,900
around through there I know that you

442
00:22:12,190 --> 00:22:09,650
don't put a lot of emphasis on the

443
00:22:15,490 --> 00:22:12,200
spirituality of this situation but I

444
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:15,500
found it in many cases to be

445
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:18,570
overwhelming myself at Newgrange and in

446
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:19,770
Chaco Canyon

447
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:22,890
at various other sites as I said I'd

448
00:22:27,890 --> 00:22:25,440
have gone around the world unfortunately

449
00:22:30,410 --> 00:22:27,900
have not yet made it to Australia or

450
00:22:33,050 --> 00:22:30,420
Easter Island but they're on my list

451
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:33,060
they're on my my list to go to these

452
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:39,000
places as well so yeah I I find this

453
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:42,090
very very fascinating and I'm wondering

454
00:22:50,540 --> 00:22:46,710
if you have interacted at all with the

455
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:50,550
acoustic people out there because of the

456
00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:53,730
last four or five years in doing my own

457
00:23:02,300 --> 00:22:56,820
research both foreshadowed reality and

458
00:23:07,370 --> 00:23:02,310
my blog I I found that there's a lot of

459
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:07,380
new research on the quality of acoustics

460
00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:10,320
that can be found in some of these

461
00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:16,260
Cairns and megalithic sites absolutely

462
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:19,710
the acoustics is one of the major signs

463
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:23,310
because acoustic enhancement makes stuff

464
00:23:28,250 --> 00:23:25,890
more memorable I don't go into the

465
00:23:30,770 --> 00:23:28,260
spiritual side because I don't have any

466
00:23:33,020 --> 00:23:30,780
expertise in that area I acknowledge

467
00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:33,030
it's important I did come from a

468
00:23:40,330 --> 00:23:35,940
hardcore skeptical scientific background

469
00:23:44,510 --> 00:23:40,340
but I acknowledged that at Chaco Canyon

470
00:23:47,150 --> 00:23:44,520
the impact on me emotionally was

471
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:47,160
something I hadn't predicted and didn't

472
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:50,940
expect and can't explain and at the

473
00:23:57,230 --> 00:23:53,450
petroglyph National Monument near

474
00:23:59,840 --> 00:23:57,240
Albuquerque I have to say option so I'm

475
00:24:02,930 --> 00:23:59,850
not denying those sides I just don't

476
00:24:06,110 --> 00:24:02,940
have the expertise to talk about them

477
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:06,120
but the acoustics is absolutely critical

478
00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:09,330
and that's one of the things that if you

479
00:24:14,030 --> 00:24:11,700
look at the megalithic sites in

480
00:24:19,970 --> 00:24:14,040
particular in the chalk where they could

481
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:19,980
cut these great big deep ditches around

482
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:22,410
the hinges so we're talking Stonehenge

483
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:24,510
where the ditch was about two meters

484
00:24:30,980 --> 00:24:27,690
deep at times but Avery and directin

485
00:24:33,289 --> 00:24:30,990
walls the much bigger hinges the ditches

486
00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:33,299
were up to ten meters deep

487
00:24:40,639 --> 00:24:37,769
cutting orc going for a kilometer now if

488
00:24:44,539 --> 00:24:40,649
you can visualize yourself in a choc

489
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:44,549
white stone ditch 10 meters deep with

490
00:24:50,450 --> 00:24:47,730
flat bottoms they're not defensive ah

491
00:24:53,450 --> 00:24:50,460
the acoustics in there must have been

492
00:24:55,399 --> 00:24:53,460
extraordinary they were performing in

493
00:24:57,109 --> 00:24:55,409
the ditches that's why they put so much

494
00:24:59,450 --> 00:24:57,119
effort to it you're talking million

495
00:25:02,210 --> 00:24:59,460
workers they didn't do this for no

496
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:02,220
reason or just to show off they did it

497
00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:06,210
because but the weather in England it's

498
00:25:12,259 --> 00:25:08,100
terrible so they must perform the

499
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:12,269
ceremonies and so they did a ditch deep

500
00:25:15,979 --> 00:25:14,220
enough to perform in to protect

501
00:25:19,849 --> 00:25:15,989
themselves the weather all year round

502
00:25:21,649 --> 00:25:19,859
and but they will have found that the

503
00:25:23,989 --> 00:25:21,659
acoustics would be extraordinary it's

504
00:25:25,729 --> 00:25:23,999
like you're singing in the shower gone

505
00:25:28,460 --> 00:25:25,739
to umpteen extremes because stone

506
00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:28,470
reverberates and reflects and you'll get

507
00:25:31,729 --> 00:25:29,940
interference patterns all sorts of

508
00:25:36,169 --> 00:25:31,739
things the same as they're finding in

509
00:25:39,109 --> 00:25:36,179
the Cairns the the stone can such as you

510
00:25:45,349 --> 00:25:39,119
Grange and lots of them have incredible

511
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:45,359
acoustics yeah so yes this sorry I can

512
00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:46,799
go on for hours about this because I sat

513
00:25:53,239 --> 00:25:49,769
in there's one on Oakley islands the

514
00:25:56,859 --> 00:25:53,249
islands right up the north of Scotland

515
00:26:00,169 --> 00:25:56,869
where they think a lot of this Neolithic

516
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:00,179
architecture started and on the island

517
00:26:06,919 --> 00:26:03,090
of Hoyt they there's a can called does

518
00:26:08,899 --> 00:26:06,929
dwarfee stain and because it looks like

519
00:26:11,869 --> 00:26:08,909
a little tune but it's a big rock and

520
00:26:14,060 --> 00:26:11,879
they've come out may I have that may I

521
00:26:17,299 --> 00:26:14,070
interrupt you just for a second having

522
00:26:19,849 --> 00:26:17,309
been there stain is Scottish for stone

523
00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:19,859
for our listeners out there I'm sorry to

524
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:21,720
interrupt you but just to make things

525
00:26:30,019 --> 00:26:27,840
clear go ahead so sorry Lynn I've been

526
00:26:33,409 --> 00:26:30,029
to the Orkneys I've been to skara brae

527
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:33,419
I've been to I don't think I've been to

528
00:26:39,739 --> 00:26:35,730
the dwarfee stain but I've been to the

529
00:26:43,460 --> 00:26:39,749
hill Oh stains just cross which is in

530
00:26:46,649 --> 00:26:43,470
it's in Scotland on the mainland but not

531
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:46,659
too far from the Orkneys and it is more

532
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:51,609
like the the norman group of stones it's

533
00:26:56,899 --> 00:26:53,769
not a stone circle in my recollection

534
00:27:01,379 --> 00:26:56,909
it's more like being in Karnak in

535
00:27:05,909 --> 00:27:01,389
Normandy wonderful conic I'll try and

536
00:27:08,879 --> 00:27:05,919
keep on topic if you went into an Stan

537
00:27:09,869 --> 00:27:08,889
can the little can right in the middle

538
00:27:13,109 --> 00:27:09,879
of the mainland

539
00:27:15,479 --> 00:27:13,119
the acoustics effect in that a huge but

540
00:27:19,529 --> 00:27:15,489
the dwarf is stayin is just this massive

541
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:19,539
stone what 10 now be more than that 20

542
00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:22,210
meters long and they've carved out this

543
00:27:27,989 --> 00:27:24,340
bit if you sit cross-legged in it it's

544
00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:27,999
very comfortable and chant the acoustics

545
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:31,960
are extraordinary and yet thoughts on it

546
00:27:37,649 --> 00:27:34,960
never mention the acoustics they talk

547
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:37,659
about all sorts of other things and it's

548
00:27:43,139 --> 00:27:40,090
quite extruded in all sorts of those

549
00:27:44,999 --> 00:27:43,149
things and chanted away and got these

550
00:27:47,070 --> 00:27:45,009
effects but that would make the

551
00:27:50,489 --> 00:27:47,080
performance more dramatic and therefore

552
00:27:54,060 --> 00:27:50,499
more memorable of the songs and what was

553
00:27:56,430 --> 00:27:54,070
critical was to memorize remember all

554
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:56,440
this information because it's not

555
00:28:01,820 --> 00:27:59,200
written down the memories of the elders

556
00:28:04,889 --> 00:28:01,830
were virtually the the cultures

557
00:28:06,739 --> 00:28:04,899
encyclopedia well you know obviously

558
00:28:10,259 --> 00:28:06,749
these people were not silly or stupid

559
00:28:11,849 --> 00:28:10,269
did anyone ever try writing do there any

560
00:28:15,659 --> 00:28:11,859
indication of that because it certainly

561
00:28:19,349 --> 00:28:15,669
bill that simpler writing certainly is

562
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:19,359
simpler it's depends on how you define

563
00:28:25,129 --> 00:28:21,970
writing if you define it as having a

564
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:25,139
script mm-hmm not at that stage that

565
00:28:32,219 --> 00:28:28,570
started once people settled and needed

566
00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:32,229
to keep records of trade so most things

567
00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:36,580
started as trade records but others will

568
00:28:42,779 --> 00:28:39,849
tell you that the symbols and all the

569
00:28:45,869 --> 00:28:42,789
artwork and the term art implies

570
00:28:47,729 --> 00:28:45,879
aesthetics first but art certainly for

571
00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:47,739
Aboriginal people and Native American

572
00:28:52,619 --> 00:28:50,470
people primarily is a record of their

573
00:28:55,109 --> 00:28:52,629
knowledge system and they make it

574
00:29:00,460 --> 00:28:55,119
aesthetic as well that that is

575
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:00,470
effectively the same as writing so just

576
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:03,530
what you call writing whether they're

577
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:05,510
right so then if you look at the Inca

578
00:29:11,020 --> 00:29:08,480
people who didn't have a script but they

579
00:29:11,710 --> 00:29:11,030
did have a knotted cord device called a

580
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:11,720
caboose

581
00:29:23,020 --> 00:29:16,010
sometimes spelt khi PU sometimes qu I PU

582
00:29:24,340 --> 00:29:23,030
and that those knots could be read there

583
00:29:25,990 --> 00:29:24,350
now showing that they're more than just

584
00:29:29,020 --> 00:29:26,000
numeric records they're actually

585
00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:29,030
narrative records they say that that's a

586
00:29:34,780 --> 00:29:31,430
form of writing so it just depends how

587
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:34,790
you define writing but not a script

588
00:29:41,230 --> 00:29:39,170
no well those does Kipple it seems to me

589
00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:41,240
or when I was reading in your book about

590
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:44,830
those it seemed to me my mind just

591
00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:48,770
started to roll along and I thought that

592
00:29:54,990 --> 00:29:50,660
that would be an excellent way to

593
00:29:58,570 --> 00:29:55,000
illustrate genealogy absolutely and

594
00:30:01,360 --> 00:29:58,580
genealogy is one of the most complex

595
00:30:06,220 --> 00:30:01,370
areas that all indigenous cultures keep

596
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:06,230
and they keep genealogies for a number

597
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:08,240
of reasons

598
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:11,090
partly for hereditary in those that have

599
00:30:15,970 --> 00:30:13,250
Chiefs and so on but in Australia

600
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:15,980
Aboriginal cultures in resource rights

601
00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:18,910
who resource rights and resource

602
00:30:24,790 --> 00:30:22,220
responsibilities it's both because the

603
00:30:26,590 --> 00:30:24,800
Aboriginal people if your totem is a

604
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:26,600
particular animal it's your

605
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:28,640
responsibility to ensure that it is not

606
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:30,770
hunted out but it's looked after and so

607
00:30:35,260 --> 00:30:33,290
on so the resource rights and

608
00:30:38,110 --> 00:30:35,270
responsibilities are held within these

609
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:38,120
genealogies on the relationships to each

610
00:30:44,650 --> 00:30:41,930
other and it's extremely complex at the

611
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:44,660
beginning of this research over a decade

612
00:30:49,870 --> 00:30:47,510
ago when I got most pretentious young

613
00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:49,880
younger thing not young now it wasn't

614
00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:52,670
young men I asked one of the linguists

615
00:30:56,980 --> 00:30:53,870
that's working with an indigenous

616
00:31:00,250 --> 00:30:56,990
culture in Indonesia why do they keep

617
00:31:01,810 --> 00:31:00,260
such complex genealogies because we know

618
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:01,820
about genetics and breeding but

619
00:31:07,060 --> 00:31:04,370
obviously they wouldn't and he asked one

620
00:31:09,580 --> 00:31:07,070
of them and the guy said back to him in

621
00:31:12,490 --> 00:31:09,590
their language for resource rights

622
00:31:13,510 --> 00:31:12,500
hereditary rights relationships and he

623
00:31:17,230 --> 00:31:13,520
said but

624
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:17,240
you white fella know that if you if you

625
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:19,310
marry somebody close you'll get children

626
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:22,640
with six fingers and that that's just a

627
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:25,690
metaphor for you will get in breeding

628
00:31:33,580 --> 00:31:29,450
errors this assumption that their

629
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:33,590
knowledge is limited is really a result

630
00:31:38,410 --> 00:31:36,770
of we looked for literacy we don't look

631
00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:38,420
at or allottee we don't look at

632
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:41,030
knowledge and complexity because it's

633
00:31:45,730 --> 00:31:43,010
stored in a form that we're not familiar

634
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:45,740
with well one of the things that's

635
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:47,600
interesting they say when the bomb drops

636
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:50,720
and all of the support of modern culture

637
00:31:54,580 --> 00:31:52,910
goes away most people will start to

638
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:54,590
death because they have no knowledge of

639
00:32:00,730 --> 00:31:56,960
Agriculture so what you're saying is

640
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:00,740
that in an undeveloped world knowledge

641
00:32:05,230 --> 00:32:03,410
of Agriculture and how to find various

642
00:32:08,530 --> 00:32:05,240
meats and how to hunt we're certainly

643
00:32:10,770 --> 00:32:08,540
crucial and much more important than I

644
00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:10,780
don't know whatever we have today

645
00:32:16,330 --> 00:32:13,700
absolutely and there's a number of

646
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:16,340
studies that show that these survival

647
00:32:23,290 --> 00:32:20,090
techniques for extreme cases then you're

648
00:32:25,270 --> 00:32:23,300
drawing on knowledge that could be a

649
00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:25,280
hundred years ago if not longer because

650
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:26,630
they haven't had a severe drought for

651
00:32:31,180 --> 00:32:29,360
that long that sort of knowledge is held

652
00:32:34,330 --> 00:32:31,190
in the very highly restricted

653
00:32:36,370 --> 00:32:34,340
information so it will include things

654
00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:36,380
like that plant over there that you

655
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:38,630
never go near because it tastes horrible

656
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:40,850
if you do this that and the other to it

657
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:43,010
it is edible and it will keep you alive

658
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:44,690
you won't like it but they keep you

659
00:32:46,990 --> 00:32:45,050
alive

660
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:47,000
don't touch that one over there nothing

661
00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:49,610
you do will make it safe that sort of

662
00:32:55,630 --> 00:32:53,180
information is held in these very highly

663
00:32:57,850 --> 00:32:55,640
restricted levels trade agreements

664
00:33:00,100 --> 00:32:57,860
between different cultures in the earth

665
00:33:02,530 --> 00:33:00,110
we're starving you'll help out those

666
00:33:04,660 --> 00:33:02,540
sorts of things are kept at very highly

667
00:33:06,730 --> 00:33:04,670
restricted levels because the

668
00:33:08,020 --> 00:33:06,740
information comes from generations back

669
00:33:11,770 --> 00:33:08,030
and you don't want to start

670
00:33:13,390 --> 00:33:11,780
experimenting with that again you could

671
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:13,400
lose a lot of people if you eat the

672
00:33:19,420 --> 00:33:16,010
wrong thing um could you give us a

673
00:33:22,330 --> 00:33:19,430
little bit about your take on the giant

674
00:33:27,490 --> 00:33:22,340
drawings of Nazca the Nazca lines

675
00:33:30,490 --> 00:33:27,500
otherwise known as absolutely I was

676
00:33:33,270 --> 00:33:30,500
my attention to those is drawn by one of

677
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:33,280
the Native American researchers at the

678
00:33:38,290 --> 00:33:36,110
American the National Museum of the

679
00:33:40,510 --> 00:33:38,300
American Indian in Washington because

680
00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:40,520
she was saying that the patterns are

681
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:43,070
similar to what you get with Native

682
00:33:48,670 --> 00:33:46,610
American patterns but what an Aboriginal

683
00:33:51,550 --> 00:33:48,680
woman here introduced me to is the fact

684
00:33:54,820 --> 00:33:51,560
that if you walk and chant at a regular

685
00:33:56,860 --> 00:33:54,830
rhythm that makes the songs and the

686
00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:56,870
information much more memorable and

687
00:34:04,270 --> 00:33:58,850
they've shown that on the Nazca lines

688
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:04,280
which are on the big desert campus in

689
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:05,360
Peru

690
00:34:11,919 --> 00:34:08,210
that had these huge animal glyphs but

691
00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:11,929
also lots of straight lines that the

692
00:34:18,070 --> 00:34:15,860
huge animal images are all walkable even

693
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:18,080
no matter how complex they are no

694
00:34:22,810 --> 00:34:20,210
tonight no lines cross each other so

695
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:22,820
then they go in and out so one person

696
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:24,710
walking up will do the whole thing and

697
00:34:29,169 --> 00:34:27,169
come out again without crossing paths

698
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:29,179
with anyone behind them or ahead of them

699
00:34:35,260 --> 00:34:33,020
and so if you are chanting those stories

700
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:35,270
walking those lines and changing the

701
00:34:38,860 --> 00:34:37,370
stories would be hugely memorable

702
00:34:41,980 --> 00:34:38,870
there's a myth

703
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:41,990
there's myths myths in the falsehoods

704
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:45,919
term not indigenous mythology term there

705
00:34:50,350 --> 00:34:48,169
are myths about them that they can only

706
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:50,360
be seen by from the air therefore they

707
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:52,370
must have been aliens or balloons it's

708
00:34:58,210 --> 00:34:55,490
all not true they can be seen from the

709
00:34:59,890 --> 00:34:58,220
little Hills but the evidence is very

710
00:35:02,230 --> 00:34:59,900
clear that they were designed to be

711
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:02,240
walked whether they even wanted to see

712
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:03,920
them because the same patterns are on

713
00:35:10,510 --> 00:35:07,280
the pottery but without that detail of

714
00:35:13,330 --> 00:35:10,520
being able to walk it so these are the

715
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:13,340
animals that were the characters that

716
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:15,350
told their stories that form there are

717
00:35:21,580 --> 00:35:18,710
all tradition well some of the people of

718
00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:21,590
those tribes are still with us today

719
00:35:28,420 --> 00:35:25,400
have any memories themselves today's

720
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:28,430
descendants of those people there are a

721
00:35:33,070 --> 00:35:30,770
few and the stories this is why is joy

722
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:33,080
in Aboriginal cultures are so useful for

723
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:34,880
this sort of research because we're

724
00:35:40,829 --> 00:35:37,370
looking at a 40 to 60 thousand year

725
00:35:43,009 --> 00:35:40,839
continuous culture and few low

726
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:43,019
Asians where the contact was very recent

727
00:35:49,410 --> 00:35:47,200
certainly only last century you have got

728
00:35:53,130 --> 00:35:49,420
the traditions intact but not a lot

729
00:35:56,579 --> 00:35:53,140
because as soon as you get contact with

730
00:35:59,219 --> 00:35:56,589
literacy and with Western culture it's

731
00:36:00,989 --> 00:35:59,229
just so much easier why would you go to

732
00:36:04,529 --> 00:36:00,999
so much work so they're having a lot of

733
00:36:06,809 --> 00:36:04,539
trouble getting the youth to do all the

734
00:36:08,910 --> 00:36:06,819
training and it's years and years you

735
00:36:11,489 --> 00:36:08,920
know there's evidence from all over the

736
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:11,499
world that you're looking at 10 years 20

737
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:14,410
years of intense training to get this

738
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:17,200
full body of knowledge and nobody's

739
00:36:21,059 --> 00:36:18,400
going to do it when you can just write

740
00:36:23,069 --> 00:36:21,069
it down well but that's true with

741
00:36:25,289 --> 00:36:23,079
today's our fields of interest I mean

742
00:36:28,859 --> 00:36:25,299
certainly for a good chemist it takes a

743
00:36:31,499 --> 00:36:28,869
good 15 20 years to learn all of the ins

744
00:36:33,660 --> 00:36:31,509
and outs and that is written down but

745
00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:33,670
you still have to put it in your mind as

746
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:38,440
well yes and that's why with writing you

747
00:36:45,839 --> 00:36:42,450
can go to much more depth in even

748
00:36:47,729 --> 00:36:45,849
discipline whereas the Aboriginal elders

749
00:36:50,969 --> 00:36:47,739
had to retain the entire knowledge

750
00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:50,979
system yeah all the disciplines once you

751
00:36:54,989 --> 00:36:53,049
start settling if you look at the Native

752
00:36:57,150 --> 00:36:54,999
American cultures there you get

753
00:36:58,799 --> 00:36:57,160
specialists in the different you know

754
00:37:00,299 --> 00:36:58,809
the corn society the snake society

755
00:37:03,839 --> 00:37:00,309
medicine Society and so on

756
00:37:06,329 --> 00:37:03,849
and that stops anyone completely

757
00:37:10,739 --> 00:37:06,339
controlling the information because the

758
00:37:14,849 --> 00:37:10,749
ultra zone at egalitarian those that do

759
00:37:17,819 --> 00:37:14,859
not have individual wealth who knows

760
00:37:19,859 --> 00:37:17,829
cultures knowledge was power controlling

761
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:19,869
it from poaching was the control of

762
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:22,960
power and there's a built in systems in

763
00:37:29,729 --> 00:37:26,130
Africa America everywhere to stop anyone

764
00:37:32,299 --> 00:37:29,739
exploiting that power whereas as soon as

765
00:37:36,450 --> 00:37:32,309
you get individual wealth the knowledge

766
00:37:38,459 --> 00:37:36,460
experts become servants to the wealthy

767
00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:38,469
leaders so in Africa you get the griot

768
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:41,529
s-- who will recite all this information

769
00:37:46,709 --> 00:37:44,079
they're powerful they're wealthy but

770
00:37:48,329 --> 00:37:46,719
they not the absolute bosses and then in

771
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:48,339
the neolithic you'll move into the

772
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:50,000
Druids who are

773
00:37:56,810 --> 00:37:54,810
mm-hmm yes the truest they are your

774
00:38:00,680 --> 00:37:56,820
knowledge elite they are using these

775
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:00,690
methods but they are no longer the

776
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:04,170
absolute power because violence and

777
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:08,310
wealth is more powerful than knowledge

778
00:38:13,550 --> 00:38:10,730
do you think what that these

779
00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:13,560
particularly the Druids do you think

780
00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:18,000
that there are persons today in secret

781
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:22,710
societies who continue to have special

782
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:25,010
knowledge that may have been passed down

783
00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:27,359
basically from the time of the Druids

784
00:38:32,089 --> 00:38:29,550
from the time of Merlin and King Arthur

785
00:38:35,329 --> 00:38:32,099
I mean there have been secret societies

786
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:35,339
across Europe and in in in the Far East

787
00:38:40,839 --> 00:38:38,880
as well I can't really speak anywhere

788
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:40,849
nearly as well as you can on on

789
00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:45,359
Australia but in terms of of Great

790
00:38:50,829 --> 00:38:47,790
Britain Europe and the Far East there

791
00:38:54,109 --> 00:38:50,839
there still remains secret societies

792
00:38:56,540 --> 00:38:54,119
it's certainly possible if they're using

793
00:38:58,579 --> 00:38:56,550
these methods they're extremely robust I

794
00:39:01,819 --> 00:38:58,589
don't have evidence of that because as

795
00:39:04,460 --> 00:39:01,829
soon as the cultures settled and we're

796
00:39:06,740 --> 00:39:04,470
no longer material egalitarian I stopped

797
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:06,750
looking at them I have talked to experts

798
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:09,089
on the Druids when I've been in the

799
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:10,640
Britain and they've asked me to

800
00:39:18,530 --> 00:39:15,690
hypothetically take my systems for 2,000

801
00:39:21,530 --> 00:39:18,540
years and they say that it certainly

802
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:21,540
matches the archaeology but I don't have

803
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:23,040
the expertise to look at that I'm

804
00:39:30,349 --> 00:39:26,520
certainly looking at that now but the

805
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:30,359
artwork is certainly a memory aid and

806
00:39:34,819 --> 00:39:32,510
that's been shown right into the

807
00:39:37,579 --> 00:39:34,829
medieval and renaissance times and

808
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:37,589
certainly the druid and Celtic you know

809
00:39:42,890 --> 00:39:40,050
you've got all sorts there's so much my

810
00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:42,900
poor brain can't cope with it you have

811
00:39:52,579 --> 00:39:49,440
to learn a new song yeah so there's lots

812
00:39:55,370 --> 00:39:52,589
of directions I'd like to go but I've

813
00:39:59,380 --> 00:39:55,380
only 24 hours in a day have you looked

814
00:40:02,750 --> 00:39:59,390
much at a gold-backed gobekli tepe

815
00:40:03,740 --> 00:40:02,760
Turkey I have looked I mentioned it

816
00:40:06,250 --> 00:40:03,750
briefly in the

817
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:06,260
Rico and I've been in in contact with

818
00:40:10,850 --> 00:40:08,310
archeologists from there since it

819
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:10,860
certainly fits a pattern so god Beckley

820
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:13,650
Tepe is a hunter-gatherer site there's

821
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:17,610
no sign of farming and you have exactly

822
00:40:22,070 --> 00:40:19,710
what you would expect for memory palaces

823
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:22,080
the set of pillars in a structure within

824
00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:25,440
a restricted location and sets of them

825
00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:27,990
and it sort of changes with time and

826
00:40:36,130 --> 00:40:31,140
they're decorated pillars in a totally

827
00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:36,140
structured order and it fits the pattern

828
00:40:42,650 --> 00:40:39,030
absolutely perfectly it's incredibly

829
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:42,660
sophisticated for something that was

830
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:46,290
built over 12,000 years ago even though

831
00:40:52,070 --> 00:40:49,290
they don't have obvious language there

832
00:40:56,090 --> 00:40:52,080
that in the sense of literacy as opposed

833
00:40:58,730 --> 00:40:56,100
to orality it is incredibly

834
00:41:02,120 --> 00:40:58,740
sophisticated for a hunter gathers

835
00:41:06,170 --> 00:41:02,130
gatherer society and includes animals

836
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:06,180
that we no longer know of true and the

837
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:09,440
the thing is that we assume that

838
00:41:14,110 --> 00:41:11,520
hunter-gatherers didn't have the same

839
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:14,120
intellectual curiosity that we do and

840
00:41:21,170 --> 00:41:17,280
obviously they do because they're human

841
00:41:24,890 --> 00:41:21,180
and so of those Navajo 800 insects they

842
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:24,900
only ate about ten of them sorry ate

843
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:27,090
about one of them the cicada about 10

844
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:28,890
minutes and things like that all the

845
00:41:34,130 --> 00:41:31,440
rest were known because they liked

846
00:41:36,770 --> 00:41:34,140
knowing and they used them as metaphor

847
00:41:41,180 --> 00:41:36,780
we have studies in Australia that showed

848
00:41:43,250 --> 00:41:41,190
that stories were traded because it's

849
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:43,260
information just like we pay for

850
00:41:46,370 --> 00:41:45,930
education traded right across the

851
00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:46,380
country

852
00:41:53,150 --> 00:41:49,470
and so people in the very south of the

853
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:53,160
country could talk about animals from

854
00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:56,160
the north and describe them so a lot of

855
00:42:01,160 --> 00:41:58,530
cave art is of animals that would did

856
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:01,170
not occur in that area because it's

857
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:03,930
knowledge and yeah just as you probably

858
00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:05,970
know about giraffes but don't have them

859
00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:07,800
locally

860
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:12,240
that's human brain is curious absolutely

861
00:42:18,829 --> 00:42:15,569
and I totally agree with you I believe

862
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:18,839
as you believe that hunter-gatherers do

863
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:22,529
not lack for intellectual curiosity my

864
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:25,890
only point about gobekli tepe

865
00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:29,599
that seems to me different than other

866
00:42:37,130 --> 00:42:32,609
hunter-gatherer societies like those in

867
00:42:40,099 --> 00:42:37,140
Africa and Australia is the level of the

868
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:40,109
competency in the sculpture and the

869
00:42:46,370 --> 00:42:44,400
artwork seems to be at another level it

870
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:46,380
just seems like it's it's gone to

871
00:42:53,839 --> 00:42:50,640
another place that I'm I don't I'm not

872
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:53,849
an archaeologist so I can't say whether

873
00:43:01,219 --> 00:42:56,160
these people were hunter-gatherers or

874
00:43:04,329 --> 00:43:01,229
not but they're there their remains

875
00:43:08,229 --> 00:43:04,339
their their monuments seem much more

876
00:43:10,849 --> 00:43:08,239
like Greek or Roman monuments or

877
00:43:13,819 --> 00:43:10,859
Egyptian monuments than they do like

878
00:43:17,359 --> 00:43:13,829
hunter-gatherer monuments I am NOT an

879
00:43:20,529 --> 00:43:17,369
expert so forgive me I'm it's not in the

880
00:43:24,259 --> 00:43:20,539
sense of an argument only how I see it

881
00:43:26,420 --> 00:43:24,269
yeah I can see what you're saying but if

882
00:43:29,660 --> 00:43:26,430
you look at the artwork of the Lubar

883
00:43:32,420 --> 00:43:29,670
people of Africa it is staggeringly

884
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:32,430
beautiful and then if you look at some

885
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:37,650
of the cave art here in Australia you'll

886
00:43:45,709 --> 00:43:39,930
find some of it looks very sophisticated

887
00:43:48,769 --> 00:43:45,719
I hadn't seen that with gobekli tepe to

888
00:43:52,130 --> 00:43:48,779
me it looked indigenous hunter-gatherer

889
00:43:54,620 --> 00:43:52,140
okay so I haven't seen that but I'll

890
00:43:58,549 --> 00:43:54,630
look at it again from that context it's

891
00:44:01,789 --> 00:43:58,559
certainly beautiful they all yes they

892
00:44:04,189 --> 00:44:01,799
all of this cultures my personal

893
00:44:06,979 --> 00:44:04,199
reaction to the carvings of the Luba

894
00:44:10,249 --> 00:44:06,989
people and they had it there from West

895
00:44:12,979 --> 00:44:10,259
Africa and they have this stunningly

896
00:44:14,449 --> 00:44:12,989
beautiful carving but it's also through

897
00:44:17,089 --> 00:44:14,459
them that I understood about these

898
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:17,099
portable devices because they used a

899
00:44:25,969 --> 00:44:19,920
handheld device known as a Lucas are a

900
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:25,979
UK a a that a memory board that once I

901
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:27,599
started reading the research on it

902
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:28,970
because some of the

903
00:44:34,730 --> 00:44:31,770
America anthropologists were initiated

904
00:44:36,770 --> 00:44:34,740
to the first levels of it I frankly

905
00:44:39,530 --> 00:44:36,780
didn't believe it that they could encode

906
00:44:41,359 --> 00:44:39,540
all this stuff to a bit of wood with

907
00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:41,369
beads and a bit of carving and some

908
00:44:45,319 --> 00:44:43,020
beads nailed on and the shells and

909
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:45,329
things so I grabbed myself a piece of

910
00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:47,730
wood I glued on some beads and shells

911
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:52,710
and I started encoding the field guide

912
00:44:58,339 --> 00:44:56,400
to the Victorian Birds 412 native birds

913
00:45:00,770 --> 00:44:58,349
it was 408 when I wrote the book I think

914
00:45:07,069 --> 00:45:00,780
but there's been form for more moved in

915
00:45:09,950 --> 00:45:07,079
I might and I could not believe how well

916
00:45:12,620 --> 00:45:09,960
I could encode I now use that as a

917
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:12,630
complete field god I have the whole 412

918
00:45:18,260 --> 00:45:14,910
there in taxonomic order so the shells

919
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:18,270
represent the 82 families and then

920
00:45:25,339 --> 00:45:22,079
stories encode the birds within those so

921
00:45:28,940 --> 00:45:25,349
if we're out birding I have a complete

922
00:45:30,589 --> 00:45:28,950
list so my husband we saw a bird one day

923
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:30,599
that he couldn't recognize locally which

924
00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:33,569
is not usual for him and it was a honey

925
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:35,190
eater which is our biggest family and

926
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:38,130
they did birds with little the nearest

927
00:45:40,970 --> 00:45:40,050
is your hummingbirds there's not really

928
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:40,980
nothing like it

929
00:45:50,809 --> 00:45:48,150
but there's 26 no 36 of them so I reel

930
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:50,819
off the 36 and he was a labeled able to

931
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:53,609
do an elimination and come down to the

932
00:45:58,490 --> 00:45:56,160
juvenile of a particular species so by

933
00:46:01,309 --> 00:45:58,500
having this complete bird guide in my

934
00:46:03,260 --> 00:46:01,319
head I'm seeing patterns and things that

935
00:46:05,780 --> 00:46:03,270
I wouldn't see if I was doing them as

936
00:46:08,809 --> 00:46:05,790
individuals so I could not believe that

937
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:08,819
this device would work until I tried it

938
00:46:12,380 --> 00:46:10,319
and now there's been lots of people

939
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:12,390
making them in all sorts of formats and

940
00:46:18,650 --> 00:46:15,089
finding the same thing these memory

941
00:46:22,490 --> 00:46:18,660
methods are extraordinarily effective am

942
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:22,500
I correct in saying that you are working

943
00:46:28,940 --> 00:46:25,710
on another book that will be instructive

944
00:46:32,450 --> 00:46:28,950
to individuals such as myself or Miss

945
00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:32,460
Kate Valentine on how to construct a

946
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:35,670
memory palace and a memory board we have

947
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:45,120
what about the memory code ah okay how

948
00:46:49,980 --> 00:46:47,440
do we actually do it I thought it would

949
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:49,990
be the archaeology well new theories for

950
00:46:55,010 --> 00:46:51,760
the monuments that would attract the

951
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:55,020
attention and it does but mostly it's

952
00:47:00,810 --> 00:46:57,970
these memory methods are extraordinary

953
00:47:02,580 --> 00:47:00,820
they have only not been so used right

954
00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:02,590
across the world and right into the

955
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:06,310
Renaissance so it's only the last four

956
00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:08,290
hundred years or so of Western culture

957
00:47:12,990 --> 00:47:10,420
that we haven't used them and memory

958
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:13,000
champions and so on still use them but

959
00:47:18,090 --> 00:47:15,550
they don't use all this complexity of

960
00:47:20,610 --> 00:47:18,100
interweaving song and dance and memory

961
00:47:24,180 --> 00:47:20,620
boards and memory palaces all together

962
00:47:26,940 --> 00:47:24,190
and so I'm actually writing exactly as

963
00:47:28,620 --> 00:47:26,950
you say a book about how to do this and

964
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:28,630
I'm doing the sorts of things people

965
00:47:32,490 --> 00:47:30,970
asked like how do you do it to memorize

966
00:47:34,830 --> 00:47:32,500
a language when you're learning a

967
00:47:37,230 --> 00:47:34,840
language now I was really bad with

968
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:37,240
languages at school and hated them so

969
00:47:43,260 --> 00:47:40,410
I've gone back to doing French and

970
00:47:46,670 --> 00:47:43,270
adjusting the way I'm learning to draw

971
00:47:49,410 --> 00:47:46,680
on all these methods and I am loving it

972
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:49,420
it's just a much more natural way to

973
00:47:54,330 --> 00:47:52,210
learn and more effective and more fun so

974
00:47:57,210 --> 00:47:54,340
that's exactly what the new book is well

975
00:47:59,310 --> 00:47:57,220
that that is just extremely interesting

976
00:48:02,960 --> 00:47:59,320
I wanted to make a funny point here

977
00:48:07,410 --> 00:48:02,970
about writing and today's culture

978
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:07,420
because I am struck not being a child

979
00:48:14,340 --> 00:48:10,510
myself having learned to write

980
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:14,350
compositions and writing a blog and so

981
00:48:19,980 --> 00:48:17,890
forth I you know I have learned to write

982
00:48:21,540 --> 00:48:19,990
not I don't think I'm Hemingway I don't

983
00:48:26,130 --> 00:48:21,550
think I'm great but I am constantly

984
00:48:29,460 --> 00:48:26,140
struck by people under 35 who can't

985
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:29,470
construct a sentence so we may be

986
00:48:37,140 --> 00:48:33,130
slipping back into the free literate

987
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:37,150
state once again except the preliterate

988
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:41,530
state with Azure ality yes whatever they

989
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:44,650
took the lack of literacy and delay and

990
00:48:50,460 --> 00:48:48,490
no reality at all so you know this would

991
00:48:54,030 --> 00:48:50,470
be a worry I've been working in schools

992
00:48:55,569 --> 00:48:54,040
and one thing we found memory palaces

993
00:48:58,359 --> 00:48:55,579
are hugely effective

994
00:49:01,089 --> 00:48:58,369
but it's the way of constructing stories

995
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:01,099
and using characters now the Pueblo

996
00:49:06,339 --> 00:49:03,440
people call their characters Kachina and

997
00:49:08,890 --> 00:49:06,349
they have active about two hundred and

998
00:49:11,229 --> 00:49:08,900
fifty at a given time that dance and act

999
00:49:13,660 --> 00:49:11,239
out all the stories and information so

1000
00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:13,670
we tried this at a primary school and we

1001
00:49:17,499 --> 00:49:15,440
didn't call them Kachina because that

1002
00:49:20,289 --> 00:49:17,509
would be inappropriate and all cultures

1003
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:20,299
have these mythological characters that

1004
00:49:25,859 --> 00:49:22,249
tell the stories we called them

1005
00:49:29,499 --> 00:49:25,869
rapscallions because we wanted a lively

1006
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:29,509
name and so that the kids each made a

1007
00:49:33,549 --> 00:49:31,599
little character and they also

1008
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:33,559
incorporated their own toys as

1009
00:49:37,930 --> 00:49:35,690
characters and started telling the

1010
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:37,940
stories and we did mathematical tables

1011
00:49:45,359 --> 00:49:42,079
that way but also argumentative texts

1012
00:49:47,499 --> 00:49:45,369
and I can go on for hours about this but

1013
00:49:49,479 --> 00:49:47,509
argumentative text is something where

1014
00:49:51,069 --> 00:49:49,489
the kids are the children's students

1015
00:49:57,209 --> 00:49:51,079
whatever you respectfully want to call

1016
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:04,329
hello yeah it's our M but not to just

1017
00:50:12,130 --> 00:50:08,170
continue on don't worry about it okay

1018
00:50:15,699 --> 00:50:12,140
students have argue a case and these are

1019
00:50:19,269 --> 00:50:15,709
little students were from Cheers up to

1020
00:50:21,219 --> 00:50:19,279
12 years if they had that character

1021
00:50:24,249 --> 00:50:21,229
sitting on the desk in front of them and

1022
00:50:26,890 --> 00:50:24,259
they had to convince that character the

1023
00:50:29,650 --> 00:50:26,900
quality of their writing improved

1024
00:50:33,370 --> 00:50:29,660
massively and then the teacher made them

1025
00:50:34,749 --> 00:50:33,380
right the rapscallions approach once

1026
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:34,759
they started building up these

1027
00:50:38,469 --> 00:50:36,079
characters and they were using each

1028
00:50:41,620 --> 00:50:38,479
other's as well as their own in their

1029
00:50:44,259 --> 00:50:41,630
studies no matter what topic they

1030
00:50:47,620 --> 00:50:44,269
started getting much better information

1031
00:50:49,749 --> 00:50:47,630
so we started adding in song the

1032
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:49,759
students all had to do force because

1033
00:50:55,630 --> 00:50:53,119
force is one of the key aspects of their

1034
00:50:57,670 --> 00:50:55,640
science curriculum they'd all done study

1035
00:51:00,609 --> 00:50:57,680
a couple of hours of force and I went to

1036
00:51:02,439 --> 00:51:00,619
each student and said a week later do

1037
00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:02,449
you remember doing force in science yes

1038
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:05,089
what is a force and three out of the

1039
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:07,130
seventy told me it was a push or pull

1040
00:51:09,460 --> 00:51:08,930
the other said it's what sent the

1041
00:51:12,070 --> 00:51:09,470
balloon

1042
00:51:17,859 --> 00:51:12,080
the road and a lot of them said it's may

1043
00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:17,869
the force be with you teacher then a

1044
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:21,470
little song using the Imperial March of

1045
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:24,170
force is a push or pull push a pull and

1046
00:51:28,570 --> 00:51:25,970
I'm doing the actions now sitting here

1047
00:51:30,820 --> 00:51:28,580
because he put a little dance to it they

1048
00:51:33,849 --> 00:51:30,830
did that once then and once an assembly

1049
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:33,859
not again for a week and I did the exact

1050
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:36,170
same wording and every single student

1051
00:51:42,730 --> 00:51:38,690
told me a force is a push or a pull and

1052
00:51:45,070 --> 00:51:42,740
did the actions now until then the

1053
00:51:47,740 --> 00:51:45,080
teachers every time I mentioned force

1054
00:51:49,870 --> 00:51:47,750
and built that curriculum were building

1055
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:49,880
on sand because most of the students

1056
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:53,090
were not thoroughly using the word force

1057
00:51:59,500 --> 00:51:57,050
or concept as science uses it so just

1058
00:52:01,870 --> 00:51:59,510
that little idea of waking it into a

1059
00:52:04,780 --> 00:52:01,880
song and getting those definitions right

1060
00:52:07,870 --> 00:52:04,790
can change everything so these methods

1061
00:52:11,650 --> 00:52:07,880
form a solid foundation and then the

1062
00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:11,660
higher levels of learning of analysis

1063
00:52:16,300 --> 00:52:14,240
and theory and so can build on that I

1064
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:16,310
think that's what we're losing in

1065
00:52:21,970 --> 00:52:19,280
education is that solid foundation on

1066
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:21,980
which you can build I think that this is

1067
00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:25,730
a really a fascinating topic and I wish

1068
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:28,960
we could continue on for a lot longer

1069
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:32,570
unfortunately we can't at this juncture

1070
00:52:38,260 --> 00:52:35,210
perhaps we could have you on again when

1071
00:52:41,130 --> 00:52:38,270
you have your next book out however I

1072
00:52:45,870 --> 00:52:41,140
wanted to close with the question

1073
00:52:49,780 --> 00:52:45,880
because here at shattered reality we are

1074
00:52:53,950 --> 00:52:49,790
interested in edge science and frankly

1075
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:53,960
paranormal phenomena and a lot of things

1076
00:53:00,339 --> 00:52:57,050
that can't readily be explained and one

1077
00:53:04,180 --> 00:53:00,349
of the general topics that seems to come

1078
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:04,190
up is the topic of forbidden archeology

1079
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:07,490
that is the catch phrase that is used in

1080
00:53:13,109 --> 00:53:09,650
the United States and maybe in Australia

1081
00:53:17,410 --> 00:53:13,119
too for all I know but it it sort of

1082
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:17,420
stems around things that archeologists

1083
00:53:22,990 --> 00:53:20,240
have told stories down through the years

1084
00:53:25,060 --> 00:53:23,000
that this happened in Egypt and they

1085
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:25,070
was separated from the people in

1086
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:27,530
Australia and from the people in the

1087
00:53:35,350 --> 00:53:31,310
Americas and everybody was living in

1088
00:53:40,060 --> 00:53:35,360
caves before the Year 7000 or something

1089
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:40,070
like the 7000 BC and now we're coming to

1090
00:53:45,940 --> 00:53:42,410
see that some of those quote unquote

1091
00:53:48,250 --> 00:53:45,950
facts may not be exactly the case now I

1092
00:53:51,130 --> 00:53:48,260
am not making a case for any one

1093
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:51,140
particular persons theories but what I

1094
00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:53,450
will the question I wanted to ask you

1095
00:54:01,720 --> 00:53:57,440
lyn is simply have you been in contact

1096
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:01,730
with some of these other people who are

1097
00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:05,450
scholars in their own right who think

1098
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:09,110
that archaeology as was told in the year

1099
00:54:16,810 --> 00:54:13,370
1920 and perpetuated since then might

1100
00:54:18,790 --> 00:54:16,820
not be exactly the way it is well better

1101
00:54:21,250 --> 00:54:18,800
be Michael Cremo would be the main

1102
00:54:24,550 --> 00:54:21,260
architect oh well I also think of Robert

1103
00:54:29,410 --> 00:54:24,560
Schoch and John Anthony West and people

1104
00:54:33,190 --> 00:54:29,420
like that I have veining with some I'm

1105
00:54:36,270 --> 00:54:33,200
not qualified to I'm not knocking oh

1106
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:36,280
just feeeeel these orality

1107
00:54:44,820 --> 00:54:40,610
I certainly think archaeology has lacked

1108
00:54:47,530 --> 00:54:44,830
a recognition of the intellectual side

1109
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:47,540
for me the common factor is the human

1110
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:50,810
brain I don't think I'm qualified to

1111
00:54:56,140 --> 00:54:54,140
assess that but at the moment a lot of

1112
00:54:59,470 --> 00:54:56,150
archaeologists are looking much more

1113
00:55:02,350 --> 00:54:59,480
deeper at the way the human brain works

1114
00:55:05,820 --> 00:55:02,360
how emotions work a reaction to

1115
00:55:09,340 --> 00:55:05,830
landscape being far more emotional than

1116
00:55:12,730 --> 00:55:09,350
the purely pragmatic approach that's

1117
00:55:14,980 --> 00:55:12,740
been used but I'm far from the person

1118
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:14,990
that that's an authority to be able to

1119
00:55:20,530 --> 00:55:17,090
talk about those things I still come

1120
00:55:22,450 --> 00:55:20,540
from a fairly scientific aspect but

1121
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:22,460
admit there are things that happened

1122
00:55:27,310 --> 00:55:24,530
like happened to me at Chaco Canyon that

1123
00:55:29,740 --> 00:55:27,320
I can't explain and I'm perfectly happy

1124
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:29,750
to say that I don't know everything and

1125
00:55:35,380 --> 00:55:32,570
I would only archaeologist I've dealt

1126
00:55:36,980 --> 00:55:35,390
with certainly in Australia feel the

1127
00:55:39,980 --> 00:55:36,990
same that they've only tap

1128
00:55:42,020 --> 00:55:39,990
the surface I think probably with you

1129
00:55:45,020 --> 00:55:42,030
and I think perhaps though that you may

1130
00:55:49,220 --> 00:55:45,030
have misunderstood me somebody like

1131
00:55:51,980 --> 00:55:49,230
Robert Schoch is a is a is a geologist

1132
00:55:56,089 --> 00:55:51,990
and the things that he talks about are

1133
00:55:58,760 --> 00:55:56,099
not that spiritually inclined per se but

1134
00:56:01,880 --> 00:55:58,770
because you had some interesting work on

1135
00:56:05,150 --> 00:56:01,890
Easter Island and he has done some very

1136
00:56:09,829 --> 00:56:05,160
interesting fact based work on Easter

1137
00:56:10,339 --> 00:56:09,839
Island as well as on Egypt and gobekli

1138
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:10,349
tepe

1139
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:12,930
I always don't pronounce that right but

1140
00:56:18,290 --> 00:56:16,770
I would and and it's not about most of

1141
00:56:22,579 --> 00:56:18,300
his stuff is really not about

1142
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:22,589
spirituality but more about the ages of

1143
00:56:28,490 --> 00:56:25,440
these things I would think that your

1144
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:28,500
work in the oral tradition the orality

1145
00:56:33,470 --> 00:56:30,000
if you will

1146
00:56:35,450 --> 00:56:33,480
might nicely augment some of his

1147
00:56:37,670 --> 00:56:35,460
findings and I'm only I'm only

1148
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:37,680
suggesting that you look into it perhaps

1149
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:44,250
and I suggest that with with all due

1150
00:56:48,770 --> 00:56:47,010
respect to you that sounds very

1151
00:56:51,260 --> 00:56:48,780
interesting I've avoided everything to

1152
00:56:54,890 --> 00:56:51,270
do with Egypt because those cultures

1153
00:56:59,720 --> 00:56:54,900
were all literate so I'm looking at that

1154
00:57:01,970 --> 00:56:59,730
now yes I'll absolutely look into it but

1155
00:57:06,620 --> 00:57:01,980
I can't comment on something I know

1156
00:57:10,130 --> 00:57:06,630
nothing about all right well I just I

1157
00:57:12,650 --> 00:57:10,140
saw it out there and and I think that

1158
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:12,660
that's about no we have not mentioned

1159
00:57:18,109 --> 00:57:14,970
the good doctors book

1160
00:57:20,050 --> 00:57:18,119
oh geez let let her mention her book and

1161
00:57:24,589 --> 00:57:20,060
the publishers in the various places

1162
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:24,599
because we have listeners in across the

1163
00:57:30,829 --> 00:57:27,599
United States and Canada and also in

1164
00:57:33,349 --> 00:57:30,839
Great Britain in Sweden and Germany in

1165
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:33,359
Switzerland in Austria and it's a nice

1166
00:57:37,490 --> 00:57:35,310
new way of looking at things too you

1167
00:57:39,770 --> 00:57:37,500
know it's not the same old same old

1168
00:57:41,690 --> 00:57:39,780
no I think you've actually uncovered in

1169
00:57:43,370 --> 00:57:41,700
very interesting and pretty unique field

1170
00:57:44,900 --> 00:57:43,380
and people should look into it

1171
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:44,910
and I'm looking forward to your new book

1172
00:57:51,779 --> 00:57:47,970
so I can become a memory palace every

1173
00:57:58,480 --> 00:57:56,019
the book it's the memory code it the if

1174
00:58:01,089 --> 00:57:58,490
anyone wants the academic version

1175
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:01,099
Cambridge University Press has published

1176
00:58:06,910 --> 00:58:02,930
that as knowledge and power in

1177
00:58:12,819 --> 00:58:10,660
so it has a strong academic backing but

1178
00:58:14,890 --> 00:58:12,829
much more readable is the memory code

1179
00:58:19,539 --> 00:58:14,900
published in Australia by Eleanor nun

1180
00:58:22,210 --> 00:58:19,549
one in the US by Pegasus books in the UK

1181
00:58:24,549 --> 00:58:22,220
and Europe by Atlantic books and it's

1182
00:58:27,579 --> 00:58:24,559
available through all book shops Amazon

1183
00:58:30,279 --> 00:58:27,589
and anywhere you want readily available

1184
00:58:33,849 --> 00:58:30,289
and I'd be delighted if your readers

1185
00:58:35,620 --> 00:58:33,859
read it and let me know how they feel do

1186
00:58:39,970 --> 00:58:35,630
you have a website where they contact

1187
00:58:42,730 --> 00:58:39,980
you yes if they just google my name ly

1188
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:42,740
double any kwy they'll get my website

1189
00:58:48,370 --> 00:58:45,170
straight away okay well thank you so

1190
00:58:50,130 --> 00:58:48,380
much for being our guest and excuse us

1191
00:58:53,049 --> 00:58:50,140
because we have a kind of a

1192
00:58:55,539 --> 00:58:53,059
rough-and-ready conversational style so

1193
00:59:01,029 --> 00:58:55,549
we do interrupt occasionally but with no

1194
00:59:03,359 --> 00:59:01,039
disrespect oh we did - it was great

1195
00:59:06,549 --> 00:59:03,369
speaking to you wish you best of luck

1196
00:59:08,170 --> 00:59:06,559
thank you talk to you after the new book

1197
00:59:12,460 --> 00:59:08,180
comes out oh please do

1198
00:59:14,620 --> 00:59:12,470
thanks Lynn bye-bye okay well that was

1199
00:59:17,890 --> 00:59:14,630
really interesting isn't it yeah I

1200
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:17,900
really want to make one of those memory

1201
00:59:23,289 --> 00:59:20,690
devices well you know kidding aside with

1202
00:59:25,750 --> 00:59:23,299
the smartphone and you know her thesis

1203
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:25,760
that the human brain is what's the same

1204
00:59:30,670 --> 00:59:28,210
through the ages and this is why as

1205
00:59:32,589 --> 00:59:30,680
dependent as they were on their memory

1206
00:59:34,180 --> 00:59:32,599
devices people now are dependent on

1207
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:34,190
their phones I think you're onto

1208
00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:36,770
something there Kate I think so I think

1209
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:38,960
people are alike whether it's now or a

1210
00:59:43,029 --> 00:59:40,910
hunter-gatherer back fifty thousand

1211
00:59:45,609 --> 00:59:43,039
years ago we all know where to get the

1212
00:59:47,559 --> 00:59:45,619
woolly mammoths mm-hmm I'm looking for

1213
00:59:48,279 --> 00:59:47,569
that wooly mammoth it's in the Museum of

1214
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:48,289
Natural History

1215
00:59:53,500 --> 00:59:50,930
well 170 seconds when they get that DNA

1216
00:59:55,750 --> 00:59:53,510
from the woolly mammoth and make a new

1217
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:55,760
one that's what I'm interested in what

1218
01:00:02,470 --> 00:59:58,640
I'd like to ask everybody is to check us

1219
01:00:04,030 --> 01:00:02,480
out on YouTube like us on Facebook let

1220
01:00:06,730 --> 01:00:04,040
us know if you would like to be a

1221
01:00:10,090 --> 01:00:06,740
guest in our listeners corner you can do

1222
01:00:12,460 --> 01:00:10,100
so in writing as well as verbally on the

1223
01:00:14,860 --> 01:00:12,470
actual show you can be a guest at the

1224
01:00:18,490 --> 01:00:14,870
end of the show or you can write the

1225
01:00:22,390 --> 01:00:18,500
stuff down include as much pertinent

1226
01:00:25,270 --> 01:00:22,400
information about your experience and if

1227
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:25,280
you don't want to actually speak it

1228
01:00:30,610 --> 01:00:27,440
yourself we will read the account of

1229
01:00:34,630 --> 01:00:30,620
your sighting or encounter it can be

1230
01:00:37,150 --> 01:00:34,640
about UFOs orbs beings electronic voice

1231
01:00:39,850 --> 01:00:37,160
phenomena phantoms you name it we want

1232
01:00:45,150 --> 01:00:39,860
to hear at all please feel free to

1233
01:00:49,870 --> 01:00:45,160
comment on either of our websites either

1234
01:00:54,370 --> 01:00:49,880
HTTP colon slash slash shadowed reality

1235
01:00:57,610 --> 01:00:54,380
podcast dot wordpress.com or shattered

1236
01:01:00,400 --> 01:00:57,620
reality podcast comm you can comment on

1237
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:00,410
either of those sites you can comment on

1238
01:01:08,110 --> 01:01:03,770
our YouTube pages or on our Facebook

1239
01:01:13,810 --> 01:01:08,120
pages we guarantee that you will receive

1240
01:01:16,330 --> 01:01:13,820
a response in short order so we are also

1241
01:01:18,970 --> 01:01:16,340
interested very interested in recent

1242
01:01:22,210 --> 01:01:18,980
accounts of what happened on the

1243
01:01:26,350 --> 01:01:22,220
aircraft carrier Nimitz so stay tuned

1244
01:01:28,690 --> 01:01:26,360
for more adventures about that you want

1245
01:01:32,530 --> 01:01:28,700
to say something no I'm done okay I'm

1246
01:01:40,140 --> 01:01:32,540
good - okay so now yes farewell from